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IPA: /tʁwɑ.niks/ || Singer-songwriter, multi-instrumentalist, visual artist, writer. Member of ARM Circle. Drummer with The Just Numbers.
Speaks in various tones of meeps.

Annette Singh @Troisnyx

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Lancashire, UK

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Dear animators [MASSIVE RANT]

Posted by Troisnyx - May 27th, 2017


Don't be fucking snobs.

I've heard people making threads and things like these where they bitch about animators not wanting to work for free, like this, which is completely justified given the amount of time, effort etc. goes into animation.

3805804_149589168761_OI.png

Trouble is, you fuckers never account for when idea guys are far more than idea guys, giving you precious music, artwork, VA and writing for this sort of thing. I have had people say to me that they're not willing to pay diddly squat to anyone who comes up with ALL THESE OTHER THINGS, just because they're animators and therefore have to get all the profit because otherwise nothing justifies working with an animator. I have had this experience multiple times over the five-plus years that I have been on Newgrounds.

Yes, because if you're a musician, or a visual artist approaching an animator to work together for any reason (read: NOT MERELY AN IDEA GUY), your craft will still be considered as diddly squat by animators. Fact. I've been through this many times before and I cannot begin to tell you how heartbreaking it is.

When @matt-likes-swords released Epic Battle Fantasy 3 and was on the way to releasing EBF4, there were a number of us who sat together and did a massive collaboration, a tribute to what started on NG and grew into a really accomplished series of games in our eyes. Guess what: the musicians and the artists were all game for it. The animators? "Oh give us fucking money." I remember even collecting together an entire playlist of songs from the failed EBF collaboration, all of which never got used. Many of the songs have since been deleted, which meant I could only find five out of all the songs that had been submitted. Yeah, nice of you lot to piss on people's hard work there.

Um, I've got news for you: musicians, artists, voice actors and writers deserve their fair wages as well. If they're coming to work with you, they too are hoping to earn something as much as you are. Cut them some fucking slack. Just because you spend the longest time on your craft, doesn't make our craft any less worthy of payment, recognition or acknowledgment than yours. We spend our time actually working our arses off just as much as you do.

In fact, we say the same things to other people as well, we roast those who want completely free gigs unless they really cannot provide for one reason or another, but sometimes artistic camaraderie takes over. Not always, but sometimes. This never happens with animators unless it's something huge like the NG 20th Anniversary Collab. In all my experience across the Art, Audio, Writing and Animation forums, I've noticed that those doing art, audio and writing are more willing to accept people's sincerity on face value. Animation, however? Money, money, money, all the fucking time. Most animators I've come across have assumed that everyone has worked out the logistics of crowdfunding, the making of Patreons, or even just the means of working out record labels when even those people are struggling. I know animators need to put food on the table, but so do the rest of us, mate.

Don't get me wrong; you're justified in asking that, because it is, after all, the most time-consuming craft. Oh wait, actually, the same could be said for music, duh! Lots of effort and lots of patience goes into one minute, never mind thirty seconds of the bloody stuff. I hear people on the Audio forum complaining every so often that musicians etc. are treated like shit all of the time; in my mind, the biggest example of this is when you're trying to just do something fun with someone creative for any reason whatsoever, only for them to treat your craft as mere nothing and ask you to pay up just because you're somehow dealing with a bigger fish, HOW and WHY exactly?!

So, to ask for moolah, and to never be relenting to those who are sincere in offering their own talent to actually boost yours?

You know what? Just to protest, I'd be happy to actually get more musicians, artists etc. to REJECT your bid for making artwork, finding music, getting writers, if you should ever come across those forums again. Perhaps some of us should even say "oh, you animators are just nothing more than idea guys." Maybe that'll make you feel what it's like to be in our shoes for once.

Animators and programmers get the brunt of the attention on Newgrounds because well, their media is far more visual, and a darn sight more interactive than musicians and other visual artists. But if you aren't musicians and visual artists yourselves, you wouldn't get far without musicians and visual artists. So if they come up to work with you, and they're struggling, don't fucking dismiss them. You'll only alienate them.

I mean, for my part, apart from something I really have love for, I don't contribute to games and animation. If my craft is going to be pooh-poohed on by some supposedly bigger fish, then what's the fucking point?


Comments (7)

Amen.

I may not have experience, but I have had similar scenarios play out for me like this to walk over me and dismiss me after I put alotbof hard work in for days for it to be thrown away ;-; I relate man.

Oh wow...so this is what you meant. Yeah I hate it when animators and artists are rude like that. Sure they work hard, but well you said it well put on this post. It's ridiculous.

I can see your frustration with animators, but you are basically rallying up people because you've had problems.
I am an animator myself, not much experience except for working on my own projects that are not yet finished, and I know different voice actors, artists, musicians that I would want to be a part of my works, and I would pay them fairly.
But in your eyes, I am a moneygrabbing producer asking people for their money or taking their money because my work "is worth more". You are almost saying communism is the way to go with "Just because you spend the longest time on your craft, doesn't make our craft any less worthy of payment, recognition or acknowledgment than yours".
All art is evenly precious when we look athe the different sorts of art like on this site, but instead of asking for collaboration, you are saying animators should be frowned upon because we're all monsters.
I am someone who doesn't care that much for money, yes I wish to earn money from animation, but when I collab with someone I will pay them fairly. You could easily say these are just words without proof, but I know what I'm saying.
Animation does take a long time, especially for independant animators. Because when an animation is just the slightest bit off, we are extremely frowned upon by the rest.
We spend days and days on making something look nice and smooth, doing more than just animating it. One simple arm movement can give us an idea of a character, it takes a lot of time to give all different traits to the movement of a character.
Am I saying that therefore musicians, artists, and voice actors are worthless now that you are saying this and I am "butthurt"?
No, because again I know voice actors, artists, and musicians who I respect very much. And I myself am even a voice actor and an artists. I have a lot of interest in music, but haven't developed any musical talents. But again, I do respect musicians, as all these different things play into animation.
Instead of thinking one craft is better than the other, or one craft doesn't deserve to be so critical towards another, we should just work together and not target a group of people.
If you do put a lot of effort into someone else's work for a collaboration or what not, and they dismiss you in the end, than there could be reasons why.
Just like there are these animators you speak of, there are also artists, voice actors, and musicians.
And instead of being mad about your work not being used for something after you've put a lot of work in it, understand it and maybe ponder if you were the one that did something wrong.
There are also a lot of animators who put a lot of work in their work for a collab, to then also get dismissed or not paid while working days on end on something.
Harry Partridge is an example, but has he turned into such a bad guy? No, because he is an animator, an artist, a voice actor, and a musician.
Maybe I might've taken your point too far or out of contect, but the least I could do is write this message.

I think for once, people should actually take responsibility because us musicians actually try, and get abandoned for no apparent reason.

Since this post I've had five other people -- one here, four on Discord, share similar problems with me. And they are more than competent musicians who were promised that THEY would be the ones the animators would work with, or they were targeted because they were somehow musicians and their job was apparently no more than pushing a couple buttons, which is inherently false.

I AGREE with you that all art is evenly precious. And I am glad you came forward, and said the things you said. But quite frankly, I wish more people would actually come out and SAY these things. Because quite frankly, as it stands, most others tend to treat us musicians like shit. The only good examples I can think of, are, like you said, Harry Partridge and Jonathan Wrathbone (but the latter has left Newgrounds).

Listen to the stuff I make. Ask if I've done anything wrong with the quality of music I produce. Now ask yourself, why would I be spat upon five times on Newgrounds for being just an "idea guy" who apparently just makes music and therefore needs to pay up because I'm just an "idea guy"? And then ask yourself, why are several musicians, writers, VAs going through the same thing? Why this elitism? Why all these threads pissing on so-called "idea guys" who actually want to give of themselves?

EDIT: And just to prove how endemic this problem is, here's a more recent thread that is still featured on the Animation forum because of how much flak someone got for being upfront and honest about his finances.
http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1421247/1

This goes for every creator, not just animators. You might have had a bad situation with a handful of animators, but lets be real here, they arent the only ones who do this. and I have loads of animations, game design documents, character models and 3d models from cancelled games, collabs and cartoons to prove it.. Open your eyes and let in the light for the bigger picture. Everyone gets screwed from time to time, and if you cant get someone in on a labor of love project, you move on and hope another is willing. You cant get mad , or really hold a grudge because someone has decided they are done offering work up for free. Its great that you offer your skills for bigger projects, but that's your decision, and you cant fault others for not being the same way with their time..

It's one thing to have a grudge, MindChamber. It's another thing when you've been stung multiple times, when others have spoken of being similarly stung, and when you have an insular forum which seems to perpetrate the attitude which I speak of above.

And I agree with the attitude you speak of -- this is what I hope for, I find the things I have a love for, and it's gotten harder. They always say 'once stung, twice wary' -- so what happens if you multiply that by five? I have trust issues, which shouldn't be there, granted, but they are.

i just read that post and that guy was a troll and wasn't even an animator, unfortunately newgrounds is full of them, and its an old edgy attitude that still permeates from the days of long ago.. But for every person that's gotten stung on a collab project, I could probably link you to 5 successful ones.
Even people who HAVE gotten paid for their work have bailed on projects. Its more of the case of the person and less of animators in general. Dont let this dissuade you from collabing. Infact, use the collab function
http://www.newgrounds.com/collab

to get in contact with like minded people.

Sometimes, or at least in my case, most projects I Collab'd on have been works with people whos content I enjoy or have been inspired by.
your music is great.. just keep pumping out great stuff and other will be inspired and gravitate towards your work!
Good luck

Thank you! And apologies for what seems like apparent hostility; I realise that on my post. I was getting so worn out. :( You are a star, seriously.

no biggie, we all hit that same wall, we all understand the frustration, just keep doing what you love!